Blackman, Whiteman, Jew

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Blackman, Whiteman, Jew

Postby Steve_Butler » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:31 pm

I have perhaps started this page a little earlier than I had planned, but as Greg wanted to have a link directly to Donna's great article on the Otahuhu Soldiers Memorial - I therefore needed to remake the Flash animation Index page to accommodate this, and with the three other pages I had in mind to expand our site - I pushed on and added all four link buttons (And had to have pages at least partially started for the punters to go to!!!)

This page may at first glance might appear to be very un-PC but I can assure members that far from being contencious this page is designed to show the great input by the many creeds and races that fought with the New Zealanders in the ANZAC Chaytor Force.

Here is the opening image:

Image

the copy on this page is only at the start point but again input from members is encouraged.

I have many bits and pieces of information that I wish to write into this page but I especially ask here for Bill Woerlee to reply as I wanted to follow up on a point he made about the B.W.I having a run in with some members of the NZMR over some traded racial insults , which to date I have been unable to find in any records. I would really like to follow up on any material he has on the subject - so far I have only found the opposite - but lets get it right.
Gal - any input would help from your end if you wouldn't mind delving into your records!!

page at:
http://www.nzmr.org/races.htm
Last edited by Steve_Butler on Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby TerryKinloch » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:49 am

Steve, your opening sentence is not quite correct. I would re-word it to say "New Zealander Major-General Chaytor with his Anzac mounted riflemen and light horsemen drew together various additional units to form Chaytor's Force, which was tasked by Allenby to attack Amman from the Jordan Valley while the main atack was launched up the coast.'
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Postby Steve_Butler » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:54 am

Thank you Terry - perfect.
I will move this introductory copy away from the image when the article is presented and leave just the explanation of the objects in the picture as the only copy - however the page needs more information at this stage and that opening sentence will be placed this morning - thanks.
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Postby Steve_Butler » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:34 am

Absolutely blown away by this photo I received last month. Thank you for all those people who contact me and are now sending in photgraphs relating to the NZMR.
Some of the latest are from glass plates and are of true definition and quailty - these have now been digitised and in this case cropped to get on the webpage at a fairly good size - I still worry that many people do not have broadband speeds - but in cases like this I allow for more pixels for the impact of the photo . Over the next few weeks I have some great images to post - here is an update for the "Blackman - Whiteman -Jew" page.
Amazing to get this image in this condition after all these years.
Image
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Postby TerryKinloch » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:58 am

Great photo, Steve. It looks like Chaytor decorating a long-service NCO from the BWI Regt - is there a caption?
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Postby Steve_Butler » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:21 am

Yes, but only states that it is Maj Gen Chaytor and a BWIR Corporal. no date as yet but I am reading up on that and also have written to a BWI website to see if they can help.

then there is this beautiful photo - I have only cropped this small section of the image to make for a posting somewhere on site
Image

The full image shows at least twenty horsemen and a long line of German prisoners coming in from an attack on Amman - Tell me if I am wrong but I blew these boys up to make sure they were wearing NZ hats and NZ putties - which I believe makes them Kiwis -the original photograph has written "Australians escorting German Prisioners" which I think is wrong - your thoughts?
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Postby Jonsig » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:41 am

Steve

They are New Zealanders you are right, they have 02 pattern tunics not the Australian pattern tunic
The Puggarees appear to have the corps colour in the centre as only worn by NZ troops.
Also interesting is they are using reversible bit, and not a lose ring.

Jonathan
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Postby TerryKinloch » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:32 am

What a great photo!
I agree with Jonathan, they seem to be New Zealanders.
Yes, several are using Portmouth bits - very unusual.
Is that a sword behind the saddle on the nearest rider, and also on the left rider (mostly cropped)?
Any chance of posting the complete image?

Terry
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Postby Steve_Butler » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:53 am

I am glad you agree with me that they are EnZeds!
More comments please as I have about three photos of this column of prisoners coming in - and as you have mentioned it is an amazing photo - I am experimenting to see if I can create perhaps a PDF or Vector image to be able to present some photos without robbing the "Bandwidth allowed" - some images are from glass, others from 5x7 gelatin and some with HG quaility Zeiss lenses taken of Turkish and German trench workings from the air.
Back to the photo in question.
Here is the full image (although not quite, once again to save space I have cropped out the top and bottom as there are no points of interest as the square neg only contains roadway on the bottom and a few windows of a building on the top segment.)
Going in closer still but not printed here -I can confirm that of the four horsemen in the front file, three have visible swords in scabbards attached behind the left leg - the fourth man's position is obscured by his partners horse and he too may well have a sword - they appear to be the full cocceal/guard type of the Wilkinson variety. The Trooper on the far left is infact a full corporal and even though I went in to a jumble of pixels and can't make out for sure - it appears to be a Waikato Mounted Rifles circular badge on his hat, with the reinforcements "horse" collar badges on the collars. I note his horse has a chain on his neck?
Also interesting are the men on foot at the right hand side of the photograph - these men appear to be war correspondents, the man with his head turned is a New Zealander holding a 5x7 box camera housing and appears to be in the process of winding through film. He appears to have no rank or badges on shoulder boards or collars , the hat obviously not visible, but certainly a coloured pugaree of NZ - however he has three inverted chevrons on his lower right sleeve so he is probably attached to the Brigade somehow.
Image
Image
Image
Image

I now have a date inscribed- July 15th 1918 - near Jericho[/b]
Last edited by Steve_Butler on Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Jonsig » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:41 pm

In the large photo of the two riders, it would appear the Trooper on the left is a corporal with his rank on just the right sleeve, his badges fit the CYC shape of the large round cap badge, and rams head collars.
The swords are very unusual, they may be for this special occasion?

The inverted chevrons are for three years service overseas.

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Postby TerryKinloch » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:08 pm

How intriguing!
The date suggests that these Germans were captured at Abu Tullul, north of Jericho (fought the previous day, 14 July 1918). The riders are immaculately turned out, most unusual in this campaign. The capture of so many Germans (377 by one count) in this theatre was unique at this stage of the war. The turnout, the swords, and the Portmouth bits, may possibly be explained by Steve's suggestion that this was a very special occasion, perhaps for a movie film???

Anyone else got any ideas? Perhaps our Aussie mates might have some thoughts?
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Postby Jonsig » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:49 pm

Steve

The neck chain is, Chains, collar. Pack Saddle, i have the L.O.C somewhere, by this stage it was only meant for packhorse and used by certain British Mounted units for Ceremonial use, some most likely carried on with the use of them as in this photo, on this special occasion.
The issue for this time was: Head, Hemp Mk 11 with ring




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Postby Steve_Butler » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:56 pm

This second photo appears to be the same day - certainly the same camera - this is again a cropped shot as there at least forty horsemen in this photo and they appear to be escorting "German Other Ranks" as oppossed to the officers in the first shot.
Again the folder holding the photos states these men as "Austalian Cavalry", but the cameraman was a foreign national who had previously had authority to photgraph Turkish and German events prior to the advance into Turkish Palestine - (another photo I have shows New Zealand Mounted Riflemen as Prisioners of War at Shellal - again the photographer has called them Australians.)

Image
On closely looking at the shot I believe these are again NZ troopers? - putties and number 2 bandolier etc - again comments please.

Image

I thought I had silver nitrate deteriation on the gel but closer inspection looks like there is a Unit Flash or Badge on each of the Troopers left upper arm - any ideas?

an addition to ponder:
I notice that the shadows in the two previous master photos fall on the opposite sides of the road -showing perhaps the troops entering the township from opposite ends??
Last edited by Steve_Butler on Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jonsig » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:49 pm

Hi Steve

They are Australians with the flashes.
Also note the cuffs on the tunics, have the shirt style cuff with buttons as in the Australian pattern tunic and pointed pocket flaps.
Also lack of any corps colour in the Puggaree.

Very nice photos you have shown

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Postby TerryKinloch » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:51 am

Steve
Could you show us the photo of the NZ POWs at Shellal please?

Terry
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