Australians who served in the NZEF

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Australians who served in the NZEF

Postby Bill Woerlee » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:55 pm

Mates

As time goes on, I will add to this list. If anyone has any additional information on these men, post it here and it will be recorded on the files. At the end of the process, hopefully we will have accumulated a good data base of these men.

Just to kick it off, here are the first 20 names:

Regt / Regt No A Rank Name , Initials , Regiment . N of K Address , State . Notes Agency Series Accession Box/Item Record No.
3 / 382 Captain Abbott , William Norman , New Zealand Medical Corps . Next of kin address: Bendigo , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 1 6578
62897 Private Adams , John , Reinforcements . Next of kin address: Arch-Dale , Victoria . Notes: SA7601 AABK 18805 W5515 1 15
3 / 823 Captain Addison , Arthur Stanley , New Zealand Medical Corps . Next of kin address: Elsternwick , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 5 6940
10 / 2399 Private Affleck , Edward , Wellington Infantry . Next of kin address: Killamey Sth , Queensland . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 5 7002
2 / 1910 Driver Affleck , Kenneth , Artillery . Next of kin address: Killarney Sth , Queensland . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 5 7006
33497 Private Aitken , Alexander Cameron , Reinforcements . Next of kin address: Epping , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 7 7160
4 / 671 Sapper Aitken , Herbert , New Zealand Engineers . Next of kin address: Korumburra , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 7 7191
40757 Private Aitken , Robert , Reinforcements . Next of kin address: Callawadda , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 8 7220
53110 Private Aitken , Thomas Hart , Reinforcements . Next of kin address: Randwick , New South Wales . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 8 7228
20 / 1 Private Alexander , William , Samoan Relief Mounted Rifles . Next of kin address: Molong , New South Wales . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 10 7460
22 / 97 Nurse Alleyne , Mabel , New Zealand Army Nursing Service . Next of kin address: Adelaide , South Australia . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 14 7835
12 / 673 Private Anderson , Harold Richard , Auckland Infantry . Next of kin address: Footscray , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 18 8288
50974 Private Anderson , Harry , Reinforcements . Next of kin address: Gosford , New South Wales . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 18 8290
8 / 731 Private Anderson , James , Otago Infantry . Next of kin address: Wagga Wagga , New South Wales . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 19 8325
8 / 2403 Private Anderson , John Arthur , Otago Infantry . Next of kin address: Marrickville Syd , New South Wales . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 19 8376
6 / 144 Private Anderson , William Herbert , Canterbury Infantry . Next of kin address: Ballarat , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 21 8596
6 / 882 Private Andrews , John Christopher , Canterbury Infantry . Next of kin address: Pt Cygnet , Tasmania . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 23 8760
17 / 232 Private Andrews , Percival , Veterinary Corps . Next of kin address: Taradale , Victoria . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 23 8781
33500 Private Andrews , Thomas , Reinforcements . Next of kin address: Ringarooma , Tasmania . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 23 8797
6 / 2054 Private Anyon , James William , Canterbury Infantry . Next of kin address: Glenark Bris , Queensland . Notes: AABK 18805 W5520 25 8982



Cheers

Bill
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Postby Jonsig » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:03 pm

Hi Bill

Not quite sure where you are going with this?.
Most of them are NZ infantry and not M.R

How does it all work, are you just going by the next of kin?
Because if they are were living in NZ they were NZers?

My great grandfather was born in the UK Served in The Australian Signals as Company Sergeant Major at Gallipoli and finished in France as a Lieutenant.
He Served in the Home guard in New Zealand and died in 1944 of Pneumonia His name is on the Auckland cenotaph.
So what was he British, Australian or a New Zealander?

You will find allot of your Australian servicemen were born elsewhere.
So how does this all work.

Captain Alfred Shout also springs to mind your most decorated solider of Gallipoli, who served with the NZMR in South Africa.

Jonathan.
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Why bother about anyone else but NZMRB?

Postby Bill Woerlee » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:16 am

Johnathon

G'day mate

It's always good to have one's assumptions examined. Your question does that very thing. You ask two questions:

1. Why bother about anyone else but NZMRB?

2. Criteria for being counted as an Australian.

Let's deal with each issue.

This is a site purported to be about the NZMRB - that is true. One startling fact leaps out even when constructing this list. A great many men swapped between the mopunted units to the infantry and vice versa. Do we discount a person when he joined a mounted unit and then opted for the infantry? Do we ignore a fellow because he joined the infantry and then subsequently entered the mounted units? The reality is we do not know everyone's story until it is spelt out so until then do we ignore every story or do we publish them?

Another issue lies with the nature of Enzed research per se. A quick search of Enzed internet sites will reveal that there are no fora specific for the research and study of othder NZ servicemen. If a site wishes to be a premier research site then it must have credibility. That is given by the depth of research rather than creating one patch and ignoring the rest as though it does not exist. That is a formula for disaster for this site. The work of the NZEF is intimately tied with the NZMRB - the two cannot be separated. Similar training places, similar depots - even on the western front where mounted units served. Reality is that to understand the NZMRB, one needs to understand the NZEF in all its aspects.

Part of the NZEF were Australians who joined up under the Enzed colours. Nothing unusual about this. There was a great deal of people moving across the ditch at the time - Enzed joining the AIF and vice versa.

The criterion here for claiming Australian origin is the address of the NOK. That tends to give a pretty good idea as to the origin of the person. Not perfect by a long shot but it is a good starting point. In a perfect world we would have all the birth certificates, personal histories and the like in front of us and then make a determination. But this isn't a perfect world and all we have of the individual biography to point us to anything is the NOK. If you feel this is flawed - and to a degree it is - I would be happy to know of a better way given the resources that we have available.

I hope this helps clarify my motivation Johnathon and in the end spell out the assumptions.

Cheers

Bill
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Postby Jonsig » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:11 pm

Hi Bill

My point is what is so important about where they were born?

A large percentage of New Zealanders at that time were not born here. But they called themselves New Zealanders.

Should we be saying English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh and so on who served in the New Zealand Forces, as there next of kin are in Europe?

As for France I had 2 Great Grandfathers serve in France, and I am very interested in the war in France.

Thats why I also belong to the Great war forum, that is mainly focus on the war in France.

It would be good to see a bit more on the Otago MR in France.

Jonathan
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Postby Bill Woerlee » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:06 pm

Johnathon

G'day mate

I hear what you are saying. I happen to be interested in Australian history - that doesn't mean I am about to devote my time to casualties in Bulgaria. This is an offshoot of my research which I chose to share. I am a tad bit confused as to your comments as to why you feel my sharing seems - well - inappropriate. You seem to indicate that my interest is arbitrary and as such pointless. Possibly to you, but not to many other people including myself. Any historical interest is purely arbitrary but it hasn't prevented people from writing history. If you want to share your research, then do so. I am just wondering why you don't make up such lists as suits the fancy that you have spelled out above? I mean if that is your interest, do it.

Cheers

Bill
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Postby Jonsig » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:39 pm

Hi Bill

Sorry was not intending to offend you.
I was just interested as to no what angle you were coming from.
And what it all had to do with the MR.
You have explained, keep up your great work.

I also have a uncle who served in The 6RAR in J force and K Force, he has a few good stories to tell.
He finished up his military career in the NZ Navy, on the Black Prince.

My name is Jonathan by the way:)
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Postby stevenbecker » Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:47 pm

Why you blokes are looking can you give the Bio details on:

Capt Heber Basil Hinson CMR

He is shown as RMC Duntroon with his NOK in Canterbury NZ

Does that make him a Kiwi or aussie and does ne make this list?

Capt Hinson was KIA or DoW at Amman

S.B
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Postby Jeff Pickerd » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:50 am

To our NZ friends,

It is rather sad that Bill Woerlee has given away putting down the roll for the men of your country who served in the New Zealand Forces of the Great War, on this site.
But all is not lost; Bill is continuing to post this information on the Australian Light Horse forum.
Bill has very eloquently put forward his reasoning and suggestions as to why this forum should be more flexible in dealing with posts not strictly pertaining to NZMR.
The Australian Light Horse Association forum has benefited from a broader approach of dealing with enquiries and information not essentially pertinent to the Light Horse.
It should not be forgotten that many families had more than one member join up and go off to war. One brother may have enlisted in the NZMR, another brother, father, cousin or family friend, gone to the infantry, artillery, etc.
Descendents doing a search for information on their family history will quickly become aware of this splendid site, if a broader approach is adopted. We have also learnt that more often than not, there can be a great deal of new and valuable information found by assisting descendents than they ever imagined they had in their possession.

Ok, enough of another Aussie trying to tell our Kiwi brothers how to get on with their lives, but please give our thoughts some consideration. We are only trying to help and deeply appreciate your acceptance and welcome to your forum.

Now to the main reason I am posting to this thread. Earlier this year I was privileged to be shown by a family friend, and allowed to copy, a letter sent by a man from the 8th Coy, 1st Otago Battalion to the mother of an Australian who had enlisted with the unit and was KIA.
I responded to Bill’s “Australians who served in the N Z E F” post on the LH forum, giving some details about Pte Harold Joseph CARMODY No. 36555, “B” Coy, 1st Otago Bn.
This letter was a remarkable act of compassion and concern for Harold’s grieving mother, a true expression of Anzac mateship.
There are two reasons I am sending this letter back to New Zealand all these 70 odd years later.
Firstly, it contains some very interesting information and is in itself a most touching account from a man who has lost his mate and felt the horror of war.
Secondly, there are names here that I am sure their decedents would find of great interest from the contents of this letter. It is highly probable that Donald S. Mackennzie’s family would be totally unaware that this letter was ever written and sent away. In the letter he speaks of his son. I wonder if there were other children and their descendents?
It would be nice for them to know what a thoughtful and compassionate man their father/grandfather/great grandfather, was. He brought a great deal of comfort to Harold’s poor mother, lifted the burden of not knowing how her son had been killed, and told her that her son had great courage in the face of death, and left some good mates behind.

The Bert Carmody was Harold’s Cousin, he had moved to New Zealand before the war looking for work. Harold had followed him over later. They both enlisted in the NZEF together in Dunedin.
There were five children in the Carmody family. The parents had a farm at Whorouly, near Wangaratta, Victoria. During the great drought and depression of the early 1900’s the farm could no longer support all the family, so Harry was forced to follow his cousin over to New Zealand in search of work. From what I understand, Harry had no other profession other than farming, so I am unsure what particular form of employment he took up in New Zealand.
Bert enlisted as Herbert Joseph CARMODY No. 36556. 1st Otago Bn.

There is a family story that they both had the middle name of Joseph from their confirmation, the family were staunch Catholics. The story goes that both Harry and Bert did not put much effort into preparing themselves for their confirmation. When the time came for the service, a visiting Bishop was undertaking the confirmations. Harry and Bert were made to sit away from the others being confirmed that day. The Bishop noticed the two lads and asked why they were not being included and was told that they had not put any effort into making themselves ready, so could not be confirmed.
Apparently the Bishop said, “Come forward, I shall Confirm you anyway, what are your confirmation names.” The reply from both boys was that they had no names. The Bishop said, “Then you both shall have Joseph.”
It’s a nice story, but our friend tells me that there was also an Uncle Joseph, a Black Smith by trade, and they both were probably named after him.

Now to the letter, it is transcribed as written: -

Waipou Falls
Dunedin N.Z.
2nd May, 1934

Dear Mrs. Carmody,

You will probably be surprised at a perfect stranger writing to you but probably your nephew Bert Carmody has written to you and explained that a few days ago in the course of a conversation we were having on old wartime days, he discovered that I had been with your son on the fatal 8th October 1918.

Your nephew was greatly interested in what I had to tell him and was sure that you would be interested in getting details of how your son was mortally wounded, so I am penning you this letter which your nephew is forwarding to you.

I myself was a comparative late entrant into the firing line, joining up with the 8th Coy, 1st Otago Battalion in September 1918 and I was drafted to the Lewis gun section in which your Son Harold was No. 1 on the gun.

From the outset we became more than friendly, probably on account of our youth, for I had just turned 20, my pal who had been with me from the time of enlistment in Dunedin was also 20, and while your son was a bit older he was still so much a boy that we naturally banded together.

For a while after my joining up we were drilling etc. a good bit behind the lines but at the end of September we shifted up to the support lines on the great Hindenberg Line where we waited our forward advance. We spent about a week here doing little drill but we were always ready to go forward at a moment’s notice.

I will always remember Sunday the 6th October for on that day “Aussie” (for so your boy was nicknamed by us) and I went for a long walk together. We were short of cigarettes and went looking for a canteen to replenish our supplies. We had to walk about three miles before we found one and I remember how our purchases included numerous packets of biscuits. On our way back we discussed the forthcoming stunt and boyishly made the arrangement that if either one of us were wounded the other was to be sure and get the supply of biscuits and cigarettes that we had in our haversacks.

On the 7th October we moved up towards the front line arriving there in the dark. We made camp somewhere in a small forest and we were shelled for a good part of the night and at 12 o’clock at night our pal (Bob Henderson) was wounded. We were lying down trying to sleep, so close to one another that one oil sheet covered us both, when a shell burst in the vicinity and Bob was wounded in the arm. And so my pal of so many years was separated from me and I did feel a bit lonely, but with your son “Aussie” still there it just meant that whereas our trio who where becoming such fine friends was reduced to two.

Orders came to move forward and later on we received our final instructions. We were to commence operations in the dark and it was as black as pitch and move forward as best we could. Our small section comprised a sergeant, corporal and five men and we were on the right flank of the battalion and on our right were supposed to be an English Division. And so we started. Through the dark we trudged and when dawn came we discovered that we had gone too far or had taken a somewhat wrong direction for there was not a soul in sight. This was the time of open warfare and the Germans were retreating rapidly but at the same time were putting up a good fight. I think that on this morning in particular there had been an earlier attack by our men and we were carrying on after them. At any rate our small section of seven men continued to carry on in the half light of the dawn and we were marching along in file when on looking through the rising mist I saw the forms of at least 20 Germans. I yelled “Sergeant, quick, look out!” and dropped to the ground. My warning was not soon enough. A volley rang out and poor “Aussie” fell.

For the next ten minutes or so we were kept busy by the enemy but in the end we prevailed and eventually they retired, leaving behind a number of their party who had fallen to our gun and rifles. The sergeant and corporal bandaged up your son who had been shot through the chest and they made him as comfortable as possible. I bent down and asked him how he was and he quite calmly said that he was done for, the bullet having pierced his lungs. I tried to cheer him up by relating that many men had been shot through the lungs and had recovered, but he seemed to realize that his race was run. We covered him with his oil sheet and stuck his rifle in the ground as a sign to the ambulance men who would be following up later. It was then that I realized the cruelty of war, for on my remonstrating with the sergeant for moving on and leaving poor “Aussie” all alone he told me that it was war and we had to carry on.

With a good luck “Aussie” from all of us we prepared to carry on and as I took a last look it seemed to me as if his soul had passed on and I whispered to one of the others “Has he gone?” “Aussie” must have heard me for he opened his eyes, smiled at me and with his remaining strength winked at me. And so we left him in the cold bleak tract of land, five of us more or less hardened soldiers and one younger soldier in tears.

It was not until some 2 or 3 weeks later that we definitely found out that "Aussie" had died of wounds. The corporal mentioned at that time that he was going to write to you but a few days later he was badly wounded himself so possibly he did not manage to write.

And so Mrs. Carmody this is my description of how I knew your son for a short space of about three weeks, but during that time I had come to be on such friendly terms with him that if your son had been spared I know we would have become much closer comrades. But in the short space of 7 hours I had lost my two friends, one my old pal by wounds and my new found friend by death. But I will not forget your son; his big heart and his braveness as we left him behind have always meant to me the illustration of one who died like a hero. May God rest his brave soul.

I hope you will forgive me in re-opening such a wound that you must still feel in your heart but I know that first hand information on such a matter is always welcome. I lost a much-loved brother in France and so far we have not found out anything about his death, though we have made numerous enquiries.

Had it not been that your nephew had organized a parade for Anzac Day his relationship to my old war friend might never have been discovered. Two days after Anzac Day I met him and asked him how the parade went and in the course of conversation Australia and their keeping of that day was mentioned and then I discovered his relationship to “Aussie”.

It really is a small world after all and if this letter of mine should bring you news that you have not been able to obtain before and which you desired to get I an very pleased. It is over 15 ½ years now since that fateful day but each Anzac Day seems but to make me think more clearly of my brother, my three cousins and my many good friends who were caught up in that horrible tragedy. I am now married with a small son of my own and my only hope is that he will never be called upon to face what his father’s generation had to.
Our Anzac Day should be a high help to see that he does not.

Very sincerely yours,
Donald S. Mackenzie


Jeff
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Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:57 am

Thanks Jeff - Great post.
The letter is a great piece and an object that any family would hold dear. I am sure that any family members that have survived Donald Mackenzie will be pointed here to read the letter.
I hope so.
In the meantime I will of course hold the letter in its electronic format and hopefully do something about it in the future. (the newsletter to come springs to mind).

I take yours and Bill's VERY valid points on researching and making available all material relating to the Great War and the NZEF - and although filing and maintaing everything we can get our hands on, our numbers working in the muesum in Bulls are three or four stalwart volunteers and this web site is virtually manned by myself and Greg - However this is not a statement of defeat or an excuse of our associations ability to perform - we will march forward and become more comprehensive each week - it is just the subject matter is so broad and the man hours available so small - but we will prevail, it is just a stratergy at the moment to post pages directly relating to the "Mounteds" to make the site viable and relevant to the subject.
At present I look and see many of the pages I have tentively posted on the site are well below where I would like them to be, and as of this date I have hardly anything properly researched or posted on the Otago Mounteds or the weapons the men used. I see and understand also the great amount of material already supplied by Wayne and Gal needs special attention.
The positive side is that you and your fellow Australians have arrived here and you previous work and stimuli will seep through to the Kiwi consciousness and individuals with various specialties will come forward - we just need a good platform - and we are getting there - a little more work and we will go look for the sponsorship dollar :D

With regards to Bills nominal roll he has been kind enough to forward it to me - my next step which I am in the process of doing is trying to "Learn" the MySQL and Apache programs to make this large data base available here online - I admit to being a bit of a retard when it comes to understanding command line interfacers and the PHP computer languages, but it will happen :roll:
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Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:16 am

Steve Becker
Steve,
No Hinson on my nominal roll.
BUT at:
http://pages.quicksilver.net.nz/l.rwill ... tbasil.htm
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Postby Jonsig » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:26 am

Hi Jeff

Thanks for sharing that, very moving.
I am sure as Steve B has said, with time things will grow.


Are any of you experts on Australian patches?
I have 15 Photos of Australians I would like to Identify.

Jonathan
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Postby stevenbecker » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:14 pm

Mate,

I surprised no Capt Hinson?

The CMR History records him as 18221 Capt HB Hinson CMR DoW 30-3-18.

The History of the CMR has no index to look for anyrefers to him in there but I found his death on page 216.

It records that he joined as Sig officer of the Regt and that he was the Adjt of the CMR when he died.

Details from CWGC gives him as 24 from Canterbury NZ and he was living at RMC Duntroon NSW Australia. (must have been a cadet there.)

Thats all the details I have on him but not when and whoi with he embarked with or any other details on his enlistment.

Cheers

S.B

Yes thats the bloke thanks,

Can you help with these men;

BALDWIN Edwin 11/564 Sad
BEDELPH Thomas 7/814 Cpl
BETHUNE John 11814 Pte
BONHAM Jesse Samuel 11/1411 Pte
BROWN-ROSS William 57836 Pte
DOUGLAS Herbert 7/326 Cpl
EMMERSON Sydney Laurence 13/795 Sgt
GRAY William Moody 7/602 Sgt
HANLEY Thomas Anthony 12602 Pte
HINSON Heber Basil 18221 Capt
KENNEDY Hugh Joseph 7/1096 Pte.

S.B
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Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:27 pm

Bill~
from AWN (which was the must read pink covered) "Auckland Weekly News" comes this extract.

ANDERSON, Pte Harold Richard – Otago Infantry Battalion, whose death at the Dardanelles was recorded last week, was the son of Mr John Anderson of Footscray, Victoria. [AWN 24.06.1915]
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12/673Private Harold Richard Anderson

Postby Bill Woerlee » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:52 pm

Steve

G'day mate

Thanks for the AWM entry. It was a great piece. Although it incorrectly identified the unit - Auckland rather than Otago - it was a spur to confirm details with the CWGC.

Cheers

Bill
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Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:47 pm

Steve~

1916 Aug 9th
11/1411 Trooper BONHAM Jesse Samuel
WMR KIA Egypt
Son of Mr. and Mrs. S. J. Bonham, late of "Gowanbrae," Christie St., South Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
buried: EGYPT - KANTARA MEMORIAL

1917 Nov14
11/564 Saddler BALDWIN Edwin
WMR KIA Palestine
Son of George and Elizabeth Mary Baldwin, of Victoria, Australia.
buried: ISRAEL - RAMLEH WAR CEMETERY


1917 Dec 05
7/814 Corporal BEDELPH Thomas
CMR KIA Palestine
Son of the late Thomas and Jane Bedelph, of Dunalley, Tasmania
ISRAEL - RAMLEH WAR CEMETERY


1918 Apr 01
11814 Trooper BETHUNE John
MGS DOW Palestine
Son of the late John and Susan Bethune, of Victoria, Australia
ISRAEL - JERUSALEM WAR CEMETERY


1918 Oct 24
57836 Trooper BROWN-ROSS William
AMR DOD Palestine
Son of Frank and Maria Brown-Ross, of Blackwood Park, Ferntree Gully, Melbourne, Australia.
Native of Auckland, New Zealand
ISRAEL - DEIR EL BELAH WAR CEMETERY


1917 Nov 10
7/326 Corporal DOUGLAS Herbert
CMR DOW Palestine
Son of James and Mary Douglas, of Melbourne, Australia; husband of Blanch Douglas, of 15, Winchcombe St., Christchurch, New Zealand. ISRAEL - BEERSHEBA WAR CEMETERY


1918 Oct 19
13/795 Sergeant EMMERSON Sydney Laurence
MGS DOD Palestine
Son of George Thomas and Eliza Emmerson, of Melbourne, Australia ISRAEL - JERUSALEM WAR CEMETERY


1916 Aug 09th
7/602 Sergeant GRAY William Moody
CMR KIA Egypt
Son of William Baird Gray and Louisa Gray, of Dubbo, New South Wales. EGYPT - KANTARA WAR MEMORIAL CEMETERY


1918 Apr 01
12602 Trooper HANLEY Thomas Anthony
WMR KIA Palestine
Son of J. and A. Hanley, of Glenthuntly, Melbourne, Australia.
ISRAEL - JERUSALEM MEMORIAL


1918 Mar 30
18221 Captain HINSON Heber Basil (Herbert Basil)
CMR DOW Palestine
Son of Stanley and Amy Hinson, of Pleasant Point, South Canterbury, New Zealand. Graduate of the Military College, Duntroon, Australia
SYRIA - DAMASCUS COMMONWEALTH WAR CEMETERY


1919 Jan 25
7/1096 Trooper KENNEDY (LOCKE) Hugh Joseph
CMR DOD Egypt (Served as LOCKE).
Son of Margaret Feidler (formerly Kennedy), of Hugh St., Meendah, Brisbane, and the late John Kennedy.
EGYPT - ISMAILIA WAR MEMORIAL CEMETERY
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