Mystery QAMR photo

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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:37 pm

You left out Victoria Cross winner Captain Hardham of the QAMR.

I am also convinced that back row first on the left (from the CMR page photo - sepia coloured) and named "Lieutenant Chaytor" on the Canterbury page is the same man standing in the "Trentham" photo back row last man on the right.
Cenotaph Database names him as 7/180 Lawrence Clervaux Chaytor, second lieutenant, who departed with the Main Body, and hailed from Marlborough (10th CMR).

What is striking about this information is that Lieutenat Colonel, and later General Edward Chaytor "Fiery Ted" also hailed from Marborough and also had the middle name of "Clervaux" - obviously a close relative of the General - Lawrence lists his NOK as John Clervaux Chaytor (father), Spring Creek, Marshlands, Blenheim, New Zealand.

RIGHT LADS - HERE IT IS - I am sure we will be able to recognise a few more men yet.
This Adobe PDF file is 285kbs - so not too big - However this image is able to be increased by 200% without loss of quality -Have fun.
click link to download:
http://www.nzmr.org/wmr/officers_trentham.pdf

This picture below is not good quality but reduced to save bandwidth, and to give you an idea of who I think is who! What do you think?
Image
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 pm

Now I have a theory - stick with me - it might be a long bow I am pulling here. But here goes:

There are eight men in this photo wearing their hats in slouch style - I believe all these men are from the CMR - all photos I have seen taken at this time only show CMR men in slouch hats.
We know from the CMR history, Powles, that the 8th and 10th were posted to Trentham with the WMR.
Divide the eight men in half = thats 4 men from each Squadron represented, and understanding human nature the men of the 10th (Nelson Squadron) are the very little brother of all these Squadrons, because of their isolation, they have all stuck together for moral support - Major Hutton has chosen to stand with his three other officers at the back row right hand side rather than join the senior ranking officers on the front bench.

The thought is intriguing when you look at the four men on the right back row and compare with the CMR history photo in the official book that lists the names.
I feel certain now that the man fourth in from the right is Captain Talbot - his enlistment address is listed as Motueka - a 10th man for sure - and bookended first on the right back row is Chaytor - Blenhiem - another true blue isolated 10th man.

The man third in and between Hutton and Talbot is George Dailey - although he hails from Waimate he is I believe standing next to his C.O. - (interestingly here the "diamond" shape crease in Dailey'sd hat in the official CMR photo is easily recognised here in the Trentham photo).
Hutton himself is a very interesting man I have since found out.
He was an Englishman and a serving officer withb the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in 1903 before coming to NZ - his enlistment address is care of Government House Wellington 5th August 1914 - he was appointed Aide-de-Camp to the Governor General in 1912 - promoted Captain) - then to Command the 10th 1914.
Served in WW2 - rose to rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
Tragically killed in a freak railroad crossing accident at Belfast, Christchurch in 1955.

After all that my pitch is the last four men on the back row are:
Talbot, Dailey, Hutton, Chaytor
I would be pleased to see this theory pulled down or supported with more info - either way
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby atillathenunns » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:47 pm

Just out of interest, the names for the second photo are mentioned in "The History of the Canterbury Mounted Rifles 1914-1919"
(Chapter I. — On the Formation of the Regiment, its Embarkation and Voyage to Egypt)

Orinigal Officers Canterbury Mounted Rifles, Addington Camp, August, 1914.
Back row—Lts. L. Chaytor, Taylor, Barker, W. Deans, F. Gorton, Hayter, D. S. Murchison.
Second Row—Lt. Marchant, Capt. Talbot, Lt. Blackett, Capt. Hurst. Capt. Hammond, Lt. Free, Lt. Bruce.
Sitting—Major Wain (O.C. 8th Sqd.), Capt. Cody (Q.M.), Major Overton (2nd in Command), Lt. Colonel Findlay (C.O.), Capt. Blair (Adjutant), Major Acton-Adams (O.C. 1st Sqd.), Major Hutton (O.C. 10th Sqd.).
Front Row—Lt. Gibbs (Signalling Officer), Lt. Davison (Machine Gun Officer), Lt. G. Dailey.
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:42 pm

Welcome to those of you who have joined the thread to help place the names to the images of these men.
There will be references and other photos in existance - perhaps at your local RSA of even at Grandma's house - we would like to hear from you.
A "New" man to add to the Trentham photo:-

Image

A footnote in a lighter vain: William Risk certainly looks to be every inch a Kiwi farmer - a big man, but look at the size of his hands!
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:28 am

I have more than a few good leads on five extra men - certainly we can say that the slight built man with the larger styled hat, 4th from the left standing back row is Lieutenant Percy Tivy Emerson, another of the WMR Killed at Gallipoli. Besides the easily recognised narrow nose and shape of nostrils, ears and chin, we can cross reference the fact that Percy served in the South African War and the Trentham photo shows the campaign ribbons on his chest.
Image

The campaign ribbons showing on the officers tunic - first man on the right second row has to be Captain Hastings as this is supported by Wikie's Wellington History as he is listed as a Boer War Vet and 2IC of the 6th Manawatu - this man wears a 6th hat badge.

I am sure that the men wearing (not slouch) no hat badges are not placed with any Squadron and are all from WMR Regimental Headquaters - this would put a lot of weight in naming the two officers sitting front row right - as Major Edgar (veterinary Corps) and Captain H.J. McLean (Doctor NZMC) (Although this could be Captain Quartermaster and author A.H. Wilkie - however I remember reading Lieutenant Colonel Mackesy's 1919 Diary where he stated he met Major Wikie and his new bride - the Captain in this photo hardly looks like he would be a newly married man in 1919?) - as with all these statements a good named photo from another source would do wonders to all this calculated guessing.

I believe the big barrelled chested man wearing the 6th hat badge standing center behind his C.O. is Major Dick - big cultivated mo - we should be able to confirm that with a photo from somewhere else? (And here again a doubt - Phil has said in an earlier post on this thread that:
N F Hastings earned the QSA and KSA in South Africa, and was sporting a cracking moustache at the time of WW1
- could that then reverse the two officers wearing the 6th hat badge in the middle row - hastings for Dick? - but then the man with the mo wears no campaign ribbons?)
Below excerpt from WMR Official History - Wilkie.

The Officers of the Regiment were: Headquarters, Lieut.Colonel W. Meldrum
(in command), Adjutant-Captain V. A. Kelsall, Quartermaster-Captain A. H. Wilkie,
Signal Officer Lieut. R. Logan, Machine-gun Officer-Lieut. H. T. Palmer, Attached
Major P. M. Edgar, N.Z. Veterinary Corps, Captain H. J. McLean, N.Z.M.C., and
Major W. Grant, N.Z. Chaplains' Department.
2ND SQUADRON
Major J. Elmslie (in command), Captain W. Hardham, V.C. (second in
command), Lieutenants W. Jansen, T. P. James, W. Risk, and B. F. Joll.
6TH SQUADRON
Major C. Dick (in command), Captain W. F. Hastings (second in command),
Lieutenants J. Sommerville, H. P. Taylor, J. B. Davis, and G. P. Mayo.
9TH SQUADRON
Major S. Chambers (in command), Captain C. R. Spragg (second in
command), Lieutenants W. D. Cameron, P. J. Emerson, H. B. Maunsell, and
A. F. Batchelar.
Lieut. C. Watt was in charge of the 1st Reinforcement draft.
The hearts of the men were high and the cheering crowds which witnessed
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby andy » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:44 am

I have some info on Capt C.R. Spragg of the 9th: Born Dunedin 19th Feb 1880, attended Lincoln Agricultural College, served with NZ Rough Riders in South Africa in 2nd Btn Royal Warwickshire Rgt, Married Hetty (also Spragg) in 1907, settling in Gisborne where he raised pedigree jersey cattle and was a Govt meat inspector. In WW1 served in Egypt, Gallipoli, Sinai and Palestine. Wounded three times he returned to NZ just before the Armistice in 1918. After WWI he and Hetty farmed at Opaheke, Papakura until a house fire and the Great Depression forced them off their farm. He returned to the active list in 1934 and commanded the 1st NZ Mounted Rifle Brigade with rank of Colonel. Left the army just before WWII amid controversy, as one of the "Four Colonels" who issued a manifesto criticising the Govt's defence polcy. Died August 1939.
An interesting chap!
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:03 pm

I realise as the men are identified this project is going to get harder to solve - BUT - I am sure we have solved the "Barrelled chested man" I mentioned in my last post.
This photo from the AWN identifies him as Lieutenant Taylor, and NOT Major Dick as I was guessing at.
11/156 Henry Percy Taylor was a further "KIA" at Gallipoli 29th August 1915, Lieutenant Taylor had been promoted Captain in the field. He was from Kiwitea, Fielding.
As well as Mo, this man's facial features especially nostril shape confirm his identity.
I must admit I am appalled at the number of these men who were killed in action before the year was out - terrible stats.
Image

This makes all the men in the picture with 6th Squadron hat badges all identified - so where is Major Dick. The only man I think it could be is the man second in left hand side back row standing next to Captain Spragg.
It is so hard to determine if there is a hat badge or not with the lack of shadow on the front of the hat - however after looking again at Captain Spragg's collars and that of Lieutenant Taylor here above - is the man in question wearing the same size shape collar badges? He is my only guess here for Major Dick at this stage - where is a photo of Major Dick?

I would like to throw in another man that COULD be a 6th MR here in this photo - please note the man standing in between Lieutenant Taylor and Lieutenant Risk - Here it is impossible to see the man's hat badge, if he has one? - I am suggesting this could be Lieutenant later Captain John Burnet Davis who departed as 9835 Trooper to the Boer War - this man here wears campaing ribbons on his chest. - He departed Main Body - 11/35 Lieutenant Davis 6th MR and he appears to have been returned to NZ for training and possible promotion here before returning to the front 19th April 1917.
(Have you got any images of this "Rough Rider" Phil?)
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby QSAPhil » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:13 am

Hi Steve,
As I have already pointed out - the man 4th from left, back row is J B Davis, not P T Emerson. I'm not convinced Emerson is even in the picture. He usually proudly wore his Royal Humane Society medal ribbon, which is worn on the opposite side to campaign medal ribbons, and no one in this photo looks like him or is wearing this ribbon (unless it's hidden under a belt). You can see the ribbon in the photo of Emerson that you have posted from the AWN.

Photo of Davis attached.

The chap you refer to as being Davis is almost certainly A F Batchelor. 1st Contingent NZMR and Volunteer service medal 1910 (matches medal ribbons). Photo attached for comparison.

Can you post a revised, named photo so we can see where we're at?

Cheers
Phil
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:31 pm

Yes those photos are clear enough for good comparrisons.
Here is the update - small and compressed to get on the page.

Image

Please Note: this photograph has been updated from 9th October - to 26th October 2010. Previously a mistake was made by stating Captain Spragg was with the 6th Manawatu MR - changed to read, "Captain Spragg 9th WMR."
Other tag changes: Removed "possible Captain Hastings" sign altogether, and have changed "Possible Major Edgar" to read "Probably Major Dick, Possibly Major Edgar".
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:54 am

The Evening Post gives us a glimpse of the preparations made in Wellington before departure and covers in detail logistics to Trentham.
Although our "Trentham Photo" shows 27 officers we can see by the newspaper report that 39 officers in total were stationed at Trentham
no doubt a number of key men are missing from this photo.
Of special interest to our photo debate it is noted that only 2 troops of the 6th Manawatu MR were stationed at Trentham,
the other 2 Troops were based at Lyall Bay - therefore more than a probability that Major Dick is not in this photo. (?)

Evening Post, Volume LXXXVIII, Issue 78, 29 September 1914, Page 8


MAIN EXPEDITION TRAINING.
THE TROOPS MEN SETTLING DOWN FIELD WORK NEXT WEEK.
SPREAD OVER THREE DAYS.
The Wellington. Canterbury, and Otago sections of the Main Expeditionary Force now in Wellington are rapidly settling down to hard work again.
Both yesterday and to-day were occupied by the mounted units in getting into camp at the various places arranged round about the city, while
the dismounted units, notably tho infantry battalions which are quartered on the troopships, have been kept hard at work in route marching and
drill. The troops quartered in the various encampments are as follows :—
At Trentham. — Headquarters Mounted Rifles Brigade, 8th (South Canterbury) Squadron and 10th (Nelson) Squadron of the Canterbury Mounted
Rifles Regiment, two troops of the 6th (Manawatu) Squadron, and the 9th (Wellington East Coast) Squadron of the Wellington Mounted Rifles
Regiment. Total, 750 officers and other ranks. At Hutt Park. — Headquarters Machine Gun Section and Queen Alexandra's 2nd (Wellington West
Coast) Squadron of the Wellington Mounted Rifles Regiment, Signal Troop New Zealand Engineers, and the whole of the Field Artillery Brigade,
comprising headquarters, three batteries, and ammunition column. Total about 650 officers Mid other ranks. At Miramar.— Headquarters, machine
gun section, 7th (Southland) Squadron and 12th (Otago) Squadron of the Otago Mounted Rifle Regiment. Total, 450 officers and other ranks. At
Seatoun. — 5th (Otago Hussars) Squadron of the Otago Mounted Rifle Regiment. Total, 200 officers and other ranks. At Lyall Bay. —
Headquarters, machine gun section and Ist (Canterbury Yeomanry Cavalry) Squadron of the Canterbury Mounted Rifle Regiment, and two troops of
the 6th (Manawatu) Squadron of the Wellington Mounted Rifle Regiment. Total, 350 officers and other ranks. At Alexandra Barracks. — Field
Troop New Zealand Engineers and Army Service Corps attached to the Mounted Field Ambulance. Total, about 150 officers and other ranks,

HEADQUARTERS ON MAUNGANUI.
Although the troopes have been brought ashore, and are likely to remain in Wellington for some little time, the
headquarters of the expedition are still being maintained on the flagship, the Maunganui. The Expeditionary Force is now entirely detached
from the New Zealand Defence Forces, and the headquarters of the Expeditionary Force will accordingly be maintained on the Maunganui till the
arrival of the vessel in England.

COMMANDER TO VISIT AUCKLAND.
Major-General Sir Alexander Godley, officer commanding the expedition, will leave for Auckland on Thursday, and on Friday and Saturday will
inspect the troops in camp there.

MOUNTED MEN AT TRENTHAM
Over 900 men, with their horses and equipment, disembarked from the troopships Orari and Athenic this morning, and proceeded to Trentham,
where they will go into camp to-day. A small advance party under Captain Powles visited the scene of the camp yesterday morning for the
purpose of making preliminary arrangements, and to-day all is in readiness to receive the troops. The camp is situated on the area of land in
the middle of the racecourse, and the basement of the grandstand is being used for dining purposes. The water supply is provided by the
racecourse reservoir, while the horses will be watered at the Hutt River. The full strength of the camp will be 39 officers and 883 other
ranks, and about 1000 horses. The arrangements regarding the daily routine have not, yet been made, though it is understood training will be
practically on the same lines as at Palmerston North.

NEXT WEEK'S BATTLE
General Godley, Officer Commanding the Force, hopes to assemble the whole of the 6000 troops in Wellington early next week for the purpose of
holding field manoeuvres. These will be spread over three days, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and should afford the troops valuable
training, teaching them the necessity for co-operation in the field. The area over which the battle is to be fought has not yet been fixed,
but the public will be advised well before hand so that those who wish to witness the manoeuvres will have an opportunity of doing so.

GARRISON VAUDEVILLE SHOW
Arrangements have now been completed for providing nightly entertainments for the troops in the big U shed (opposite
H.M.S. Psyche), so kindly placed by the Wellington Harbour Board at the disposal of the Defence authorities. The entertainments, which will be
run under the designation of the " Garrison Vaudeville Show," will be commenced this evening, and will be given nightly so long as the troops
are in port, lasting from 7 to 9 o'clock each evening. A fresh programme will bo presented on each occasion, and some exceptional talent has
been promised, the Messrs. Fuller, the Wellington Salvage Club, the Wellington Orphans' Club, and the Boxing Association having agreed to
co-operate in the undertaking. Tho admission for soldiers and sailors in uniform will bo free, while civilians will be charged 1 shilling, the
proceeds being devoted towards the Patriotic Fund! The shed has seating accommodation for 3000, and a special stage has been erected by the
City Council free of charge.
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby andy » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:53 am

Thanks Steve,
Good to get extra insights like this. I think it would have been the Savage Club - not the Salvage Club. Isn't it a little strange that everything was made so open and public? I bet the German High Command was aware of their full strength in detail before they even left the harbour!
Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:33 pm

You will remember John Winter from Nelson sent up a scan of a great picture of the 6th Manawatu MR at camp in Palmerston North 1914 before departure.
The first image was not too clear to see any faces because of the rather large size of the print - However that has been all changed now John informs me. He has had a large format scan completed which has come out at over 7 megs (so too big to post) in the meantime he has sent up a reduced res scan which I have now cropped out all but the 7 officers of the Squadron sitting at the front.
Image

I would like to point out a number of factors here that are interesting.
The officers are not wearing hat badges.
The first 4 men wear campain ribbons.
The man sitting 5 in from the left shows the triple rings on his sleeve relating to the rank of Major. I believe this must be Major Dick.
This man therefore has a similar face shape of the man sitting between Major Chambers and Captain Hardham in the Trentham photo who also has the rank of Major - I suggest this is Major Dick also.
The ranks of all the officers are visible on the sleeves - single ring = Lieutenant, double ring = Captain.
The man showing the rank of Captain above has a very obvious mustache (as mentioned by Phil, re Captain Hastings) lenial nose shape is obvious and he does not appear in the Trentham photo - This must be Captain Hastings? - now, knowing other factors, Captain Hastings must have been on station at Lyall Bay with the other 2 Troops of the 6th when the Trentham photo was taken.
I would like to suggest the officers left to right above are:
1. Unknown 2.Batchelor. 3.Davis. 4.Hastings. 5.Dick. 6.Taylor. 7.Unknown.
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:39 pm

Intersesting email arrived from John Winter today, he observes:-

Hi Steve

I believe the Captain in the photo is Capt Spragg, the 2iC of the Squadron. he is top left in the Trentham photo

Lt Batchelor was 9 WMR so possibly may not be him

The other subalterns in 6 WMR were Mayo, Somerville, Davis and Taylor

Hope others can help with the identifications

regards

john


With that email John had me scrambling for my copy of the History of the Wellington Mounted Rifles - Wilkie, and I see I have made a mistake with the names I have added onto the Trentham photo - Captain Sprag was the 2IC with the 9th under Major Chambers - I am sorry about that - with that clarified, I believe this photo supplied by John above is still Captain Hastings. To highlight my mistake here below are theofficers as printed in the WMR History:-
2ND SQUADRON
Major J. Elmslie (in command), Captain W. Hardham, V.C. (second in
command), Lieutenants W. Jansen, T. P. James, W. Risk, and B. F. Joll.
6TH SQUADRON
Major C. Dick (in command), Captain W. F. Hastings (second in command),
Lieutenants J. Sommerville, H. P. Taylor, J. B. Davis, and G. P. Mayo.
9TH SQUADRON
Major S. Chambers (in command), Captain C. R. Spragg (second in
command), Lieutenants W. D. Cameron, P. J. Emerson, H. B. Maunsell, and
A. F. Batchelar.
Lieut. C. Watt was in charge of the 1st Reinforcement draft.


Please Note: photograph has been updated from 9th October entry date prior - to changes made 26th October 2010.
Previously a mistake was made by stating Captain Spragg was with the 6th Manawatu MR - now changed to read, "Captain Spragg 9th WMR."
Other tag changes. Removed "possible Captain Hastings" sign altogether, and changed "Possible Major Edgar" to now read "Probable Major Dick, Possible Major Edgar".

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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby andy » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:53 pm

Anyone got a picture of Joll?
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Re: Mystery QAMR photo

Postby Steve_Butler » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:07 pm

Image

Because the copy I have of "The Official War History of the Wellington Mounted Rifles" - Wilkie - is in a rather delicate condition I don't like to open it, therefore I use the PDF copy I made from it for my referecnces - (placed on site and available to download free on our books page).
However I never scanned the images from the book into the PDF for two reasons - 1. it would make the download very large and many people would not download because of the size 2. the photos are not very well reproduced, the print set up is poor.
But I thought a closer look might bring something to the debate, so off for a careful look through the book - well there are certainly photos there of the men - but the publisher has put three four and sometimes more images onto a page, and the pages are small to start with - it is difficulyt to gain much from any image.

I would like to think lieutenant Janson in this photo has enough likeness to say he is the same man sitting next to Lieutenant Taylor in the 6th MR photo from Palmerston North that I posted on the 22nd above (two photos back up above.)
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