Blackman, Whiteman, Jew

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Postby stevenbecker » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:09 pm

Mates,

I posted this on the other site.


"I can't add much other then the guess's already mentioned.

What Kiwis are doing with swords and what a mixed group of soldiers from the NZMR, the Aust LH and British Yeomanry are going leading a large group of German prisoners in unknown.

My only idea could be they the prisoner escort and were a special force gathered to lead these prisoners through possibly Jerusalem, the escort drawn from all mounted troops in the Empire in Palestine could repesent all the fighting men for this special event.

As to why the Kiwis would have swords I can only sumise that they were issued to protect the Troops from the prisoners.

I do have records of a number of Aussie LH soldiers being attached to these prisoners escort duties.

S.B
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Postby Steve_Butler » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:58 pm

Terry I will post the Shellal pics when I get home -I only took a few pics with me to play round with on the laptop I dont come ashore till friday/sat.
In the meantime here is a wider angle of the ALH bringing in the prisoners.

Image

the originals I am playing round with have scanned out over 30megs in some cases and are far to big to post here yet. But I can assure you the res is fantastic.
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Postby Bill Woerlee » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:10 pm

Steve

Looking at the shoulder patches, the unit appears to be 2nd Remounts - a long white patch with a thin darker line inset.

Cheers

Bill
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Remembering -

2823 Private Herbert Leslie Schramm [1892-1960]: B Trp, A Sqn, 9th ALHR. The great grandfather of my children.
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Postby stevenbecker » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:19 pm

Mate,

I'am inclined to think they are 2nd LHR soldiers or from the 1st LH Bde.

The Abu Tellul battle involved units of that LH Bde with the help of our NZ mates from the NZMR.

Some 425 men were taken prisoner of which 358 were germans. (AOWH page 669) or 448 of which 377 were German (BOWH page 433 vol 2) from the 702 Bn, 703 Bn, 1xCompany 11 jagar Bn and 1xCompany 146 Regt of the German Asia Corps.

Cheers

S.B
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Postby TerryKinloch » Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:01 am

How about this as an alternative hypothesis: Allenby was keen to convince the Turks that all his mounted divisions were still in the Jordan Valley, when in fact he intended to transfer all but the Anzac Mounted Division to the coast for his breakthrough there in September 1918.
Perhaps some Anzac MD men were issued swords as part of this deception plan, to suggest that the 4th or 5th Cavalry divisions were in the valley. If the Australian Mounted Division received its swords before leaving the valley, this also ties in with this theory.
Thoughts?

Terry

P.S. I have also posted this message on the ALH Assn forum.
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Postby Bill Woerlee » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:24 am

Steve

G'day mate

Sentiment is with you but facts are against you.

Here is the 2nd Remount shoulder patch:

Image

Here are the patches for the 1st LH Bde:

Image

Look at the pix carefully and you cannot under any circumstance get a fit on the 1st LH Bde patches regardless of regiment. The only patch that fits the profile is 2nd Remount.

Terry

I think you credit the "on the ground" commanders with too much guile. I suspect that this is a scratch depot crew from the remount section, both Enzed and Oz, who were stuck on Yeomanry horses because they were the only ones ready to go. I believe that no one would have actually been able to use the swords effectively in anger, but the prisoners don't know that so they present a potential of violence and hideous slashes rather than an actuality. Holding of the rifle by the pistol grip indicates that this part of the ride was done for the cameras - maintaining that stance for more than an hour is difficult despite the balance demonstrated which is drilled into the men - too many letters home complaining of the sore wrists from this drill. I suspect you are correct to suggest that these Germans are only too happy to go into captivity and would not be too inclined to bolt.

Cheers

Bill
Australian Light Horse Studies Centre
http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse/

Remembering -

2823 Private Herbert Leslie Schramm [1892-1960]: B Trp, A Sqn, 9th ALHR. The great grandfather of my children.
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Postby stevenbecker » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:17 pm

Bill,

Clearly (to me) the photo on the last page shows that the patch is the LH type (white over other colour which means 1st LH Bde) not the Remounts (white with a stripe).

Terry,

No I also don't draw that from the photo.

The British had just won a great victory here and the largest number of Germans taken in Palestine.

What Allenby wanted was to let the world know about it and of cause the turks and then show off that number of germans along with the escort from all the Allied mounted Regts, who beat them was the idea behind the photo a great propagander shot.

Thats why I think they are 1st LH Bde as they had just captured them along with the NZMR. So why not have these two nations showing off their captures.

In July there was still a lot going with a number of large attacks beaten off also the 5th LH Bde was still being formed in July and started training in Aug while other LH Regts were to convert to swords in Aug.

So the start of Allenby's deception plan had not begun for the Sept operations.

Cheers

S.B
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Postby Bill Woerlee » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:44 pm

Steve

Mate, you are not looking at the shoulder patch with care - look at the width and compare it to the length - the width is smaller than the length. Measure it with a ruler if you will. Then you will see why it cannot be LHB which is wider than it is long.

I have blown up one of the shoulder patches to illustrate what I mean.

Image

Cheers

Bill
Australian Light Horse Studies Centre
http://alh-research.tripod.com/Light_Horse/

Remembering -

2823 Private Herbert Leslie Schramm [1892-1960]: B Trp, A Sqn, 9th ALHR. The great grandfather of my children.
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Postby stevenbecker » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:02 pm

Bill,

No you are not looking the photo, it showns a half triangle (white) and another half trangle being a darker colour. Thats a 1st LH Bde unit.

There is no straight line as shown in your Remouts colour patch.

Mate compare it to the Remounts patch which has either a straight line up the middle of the patch or across the middle of the patch.

Clearly the divide is from corner to corner which means its a LH patch.

From the photo its looks like a 3rd LHR (white over black) but since there is no colour it could be also the 2nd LHR (white over Green) . The 1st LHR would be white over light Blue and that doesn't look correct for that regt?

Cheers

S.B
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Postby Steve_Butler » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:42 pm

If we have to be super sluthes all these years later, let us have a little fun with the technology we have available - what would a modern army do to improve its intel of an enemy photo in the field - after all, having positive ID of units or units opposing you would be important - so here's another look:-

Showing the negative can sometimes make the eye approach the problem with a fresh view:

ImageImage

On the negative we take a purple marker line across the stiching of the shoulder epaulette at the angle of the shoulder presented to camera - then draw a plumb line relevant to that angle - it appears that this centre line (if the trooper has indeed sewen the patch inline) crosses through the patch at approximately half way where the supposedly diagonal line runs.
Also if we follow the diagonal line it appears to follow a shading line which represents a ntural fold in the soldiers sleeve - this bulging line would then appear to hide the reminder of the patch - I suggest this is two triangles butted together represented in the LH patch shown previously.

OK so we've got that settled - maybe no! we look across the file to the rider on the other side of the road - and we see this below
Nothing like any of the designs shown by Bill.

Image
This patch appears to be oblong with a stripe running down - a combination of the two remounts shown above - any ideas?
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Postby stevenbecker » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:05 pm

Mate,

your eyesight is better then mine as the second photo I can see no patch?

S.B
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Postby Steve_Butler » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:25 pm

When in doubt about a location - talk to the horses mouth!
I enlarged the skyline of the photo in question as I noticed a large building there. After spending fruitless hours searching Jericho from webpages to Google Earth I was unable to match the large "European" structure with any of the local landmarks.
So at a dead end I sent the image to member Gal Shaine, resident of Israel - within a space of a few hours came his reply.

The building on the horizon is the "Augustra Victoria" building: a monsterous complex built by the German Kaizer not too long before the war. It is on the ridfe between the Mount of Olives (On right and not seen) and Mt Scopus (On left). The walls are the northern walls of the Old City of Jerusalem, near the so called "Flower Gate". The rocky hill on the left now holds the "Rockefeller Museum for Archaeology". All are in Jerusalem, BTW. This was the road north after getting out of the Damascus Gate. Augusta Victoria is now an Arab Hospital.


therefore I can now post this image:
Image
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Postby GS » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:20 am

BTW Steve: I happened to drive on that same road today and had a camera...

Image[/img]
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Postby Steve_Butler » Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:48 pm

Thanks again Gal.

So the photo montage updated.
Image
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Postby stevenbecker » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:06 pm

Mates,

Its a pity we can't see whats on the right hand side of these two arab gentlemen in the photo to confirm what part of the city wall it is?

S.B
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